2. Aad are mentioned as another Arabian tribe destroyed by God for rejecting their Prophet Hud. See the video here (arabic): https://youtu.be/yjRjkjQ-VEA, Me however I lean towards that Madain Saleh is not the place for the Quranic Thamud like Dr Thiaeb (linguist of ancient arabic and archeologist) has been repeatedly saying at least since 1995, because among other reasons that Madain Saleh lacks all the marks of Gods wrath, the earth quake levelling Thamud etc. Then bring us what you promise us if you are among the truthful.Chapter 7, Verse 70, It is all the same to us if you advise us are not from among the advisors. However, as the Christians have proposed an objection to the notion of any other people carving structures in hills and mountains prior to the Nabateans, this leaves the Christians with the following options: (1). They were Giants and so powerful. A. Yusuf Ali wrote: The Thamud people were destroyed by a dreadful earthquake which threw them prone on the ground and buried them with their houses and their fine buildings., A terrible earthquake came and buried the people [of Thamud] and destroyed their boasted civilization. The crafts became abundant and firmly rooted. Thirdly, the hadith you quoted isnt the only hadith on the topic. Are Hadiths Anti-Semitic? As for objection number one, as far as my research has shown, the only reason that the carved-out structures are considered tombs is due to various rectangular carved out niches inside them where the dead bodies were to be placed. Not every opinion that he held was necessarily a divine revelation. The Edomites can also be a separate nation and through the passage time they shared history, tradition, and custom with the remnants of the Thamud. If you keep that mindset, youll go far, Inshallah. Please refer to the appropriate style manual or other sources if you have any questions. Accordingly, the Thamud were a powerful and idolatrous tribe living in Hegra, now called Madin li, the Cities of liin northwestern Arabia. Thamud were destroyed These prefixes ignored in the alphabetical ordering: Al, Bani, Banu. As their material wealth increased so, too, did their evil ways while their virtue decreased. Large numbers of Bani Rasheed are also found on the Arabian Peninsula. [15], But despite the presence of a tribe called the Thamud as late as the fourth century, sixth-century Arab poets whose works are preserved in post-Islamic sources were already referring to the Thamud as an ancient and long-lost tribe whose very name recalled the transience of all things. [24] These tribes advanced in large numbers all the way to Morocco, contributing to a more extensive ethnic, genetic, cultural, and linguistic Arabization in the region. He replaced the people of the Flood with the Aad and then replaced the Aad with the Thamud. He said: ., Do not enter (the dwelling places) of these people unless you enter weeping, but if you weep not, then do not enter upon them, lest you be afflicted with what they were afflicted with [Bukhari]. Under the Umayyad Caliphate, Arabic became the official language in Egypt rather than Coptic or Greek. They lived in the kingdom of Edom, which is about 200 or so miles from Madian Saleh, where, supposedly, the Quranic Thamud lived, although the Thamud could have lived in multiple areas, including Petra 3. The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee Also is 27:52 past tense or present sorry to keep bothering you but these are it, Because you said 27:52 said they are destroyed fallen buy 89:9 makes it sound like there still standing clean and like brand new etc, 5. She states that all we have are A few papyri, which are mainly private contracts, and thousands of graffiti scattered on the rocks, 90% of which contain only the name of the individual who wrote it, his fathers name, and a formulaic greeting. As also 'Ad and Thamud, and the Companions of the Rass, and many a generation between them. http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/. The Christians are claiming that the Qurans statement about Thamud carving structures in the hills and mountains is demonstrably false as the structures are built not by the Thamud but by the Nabateans, who came much later. [20] The traditional Muslim view is that the destruction of Thamud occurred before the prophethood of Abraham. - _ taf . Numerous rock writings and pictures traditionally attributed to the Thamd have been found on Mount Athlab and throughout central Arabia; though labeled Thamdic, they actually reflect a diverse set of ancient Semitic dialects used by various Arabian tribes. A Reminder of the Story of 'Aad and Thamud by Ibn Kathir, taken from Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged), Volume 8 Darussalam 2000 As for `Ad, they were arrogant in the land without right and they said: 'Who is mightier than us in strength?' See they not that Allah Who created them was mightier in strength than them. I am also writing an text on this that I inshaAllah will put up online. However, inside most of them is only a small room about three to four square meters in size. Although, implausible, but not impossible. That they were better than you in building these fallen down relics 2. So, in summary, The Quran makes a claim that in a particular time in history, a people known as Thamud built structures on the hills and mountains. 'Aad and Thamud are two of several communities described in the Quran as recipients of God's chosen prophets - and being utterly destroyed for rejecting them. The Thamd were known from contemporary sources to have occupied parts of the Hejaz region, and later Islamic tradition holds that they settled on the slopes of Mount Athlab. [11] An important exception is a temple at al-Ruwfa in northwestern Saudi Arabia, built by the Thamd themselves in the 160s CE. The Thamd were known from contemporary sources to have occupied parts of the Hejaz region, and later Islamic tradition holds that they settled on the slopes of Mount Athlab. (2/380-381), The inscriptions of al-Hijr are the remnants of the Nabateans. There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him! Wadi al-Qura, refer to the article above. The Arabs then could see Thamud dwellings but we today cannot. Theyre mentioned in 25:38 and 50:12. (sorry for all the writting just answer the atharan bit and the 7 things I just wrote Down it doesnt matter about that long paragraph in the middle), Or bonus it just means they were better in building houses on past witch you cant see anymore like effects in 30:50, Any thoughts Bro sorry to keep bothering you with this, Aoa Badawi writes: [li] and his followers left the doomed area just before Gods punishment befell them. and make your nest among the stars, They are of Arab origin, but now of mixed blood mostly with Nilo-Saharans and Nubians. However this would not explain why the Prophet () referred to the houses as Thamuds dwellings. And when they did that, Allahs wrath came on them. But we can conclude from the verses of the Quran that they lived sometime after the flood of Noah and before the time of Ibrahim (AS). [31][32] Other Arab tribes migrated into Sudan in the 12th century and intermarried with the indigenous populations, forming the Sudanese Arabs. And 'Ad and Thamud (people)! They mainly settled in the Hauran region and spread to modern Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. What is uncovered thus far reveal that the structures are not dwellings, but tombs. Furthermore, there is also proof that they had some elements of true Islam in their faith. [3] As the "Ta-mu-di", the peoples are mentioned together with the Ephah, the "Ibadidi", and the "Marsimani" as part of "the distant desert-dwelling Arabs who knew neither overseers nor officials and had not brought their tribute to any king". Let us know if you have suggestions to improve this article (requires login). Prior to the Muslim conquest of Egypt, Egypt was under Greek and Roman influence. 14. Does 22:45 say thamud castles and palaces are empty in the present tense with the well or is this verse talking about something else, 13. Sargon defeated these tribes, according to his Annals, and had them forcibly deported to Samaria. Syed Suleman Nadvi discusses this in Tarikh Ard al-Quran vol.2. [21] Syrians who belonged to Monophysitic denominations welcomed the peninsular Arabs as liberators. And they were also well-built because they still exist today. Nabateans replaced them and built on them/around them What? The Bible does contain verses about a particular nation known as the Edomites, who did carve out structures on mountains and who were destroyed by God. The Quran states regarding them: , And to the Thamud [We sent] their brother Salih. Tribes originating in the Arabian Peninsula. However, while I agree that these two groups are certainly predecessors to modern Arabs, Im not convinced that Hud, Salih, Shuayb, and Ismail were actually Arabs.. Seriously? [4] This entire passage has been sent by Sharif. Being Dutiful to Parents: Islamic knowledge, The Door to Eternal Paradise: Islamic knowledge. Its also implausible that a people who would be at the helm of such epic architectural and engineering achievements would not even make mention of it, or at least keep a record of it. 63-65. When some one has a keen desire to understand logically or has questions, there is nothing wrong I think. [Quran11:6168(Abdel Haleem)], The Islamic exegetical tradition adds detail to the Quran's account. The Quran tells us that the people of Ad started to build altars on the high places, and even strongholds in the mountains. 'Ad and Thamud are closely connected by both Islamic and pre-Islamic sources. Why? The expedition of Tabuk does identify the dwellings and ruins of a destroyed nation of Thamud and this area is between Madeenah and Shaam/Syria. Instead, they tried to engage Salih in debate. . : | _ books. Personallhy, I think that number is too soon. They are mentioned in the Quran as examples of civilizations that Allah had destroyed because of their sins and as signs of the fleeting nature of the worldly power. They mistreated the lower classes and worshiped others besides Allah. They felt that their habitations would, somehow, secure them from destruction. The Nabateans who made the carvings in Madain Saleh and Petra, as well as other Arab groups like the Dedanites/Lihyanites, are their successors. According to the Islamic tradition, the Thamd were warned by the prophet li to worship Allh, but the Thamd stubbornly refused and as a result were annihilated either by a thunderbolt or by an earthquake. I am unsure if the root word but atharan can mean impact. Several broken columns in the ruins of Wadi Ramm have been interpreted as the lofty pillars associated with Iram in the Quran. [15:80-84], , Abdullah b. These verses can be found in multiple books, we will focus on Obadiah and Jeremiah. This is an article I recently wrote. The fact that he showed them the well of the she-camel and confirmed the area as geographically related to Thamd but made no comment on the tombs shows that he knew they were unrelated to any previous Prophet. The wordings themselves state so and all the tafaseer also state this. The Thamud were Arabs, and the Bible tells us in Genesis 28:9 that Esauthe father of the Edomites married into the Ishmaelites, so that makes Edomites half Arabs also. [22], The first wave of Arab immigration to the Maghreb began with the conquest of the Maghreb in the seventh century, with the migration of sedentary and nomadic Arabs to the Maghreb from the Arabian Peninsula. Archeologists have put these ruins from the first century BCE and the first century CE. [25] The Arab tribes of Maqil migrated to the Maghreb a century later and even immigrated southwards to Mauritania. However, now none may be visible and what is visible now are those made centuries later. (LogOut/ [26] The Arab descendants of the original Arabian settlers who continue to speak Arabic as a first language currently form the single largest population group in North Africa. Im also inclined to believe that these nine families were the direct descendents of those believers who escaped the land of the Aad with Hud. I guess it can be said that the Nabataeans can be considered one of the nations succeeding the people of Thamud. Arabization and Islamization of Syria began in the 7th century, and it took several centuries for Islam, the Arab identity, and language to spread;[19] the Arabs of the caliphate did not attempt to spread their language or religion in the early periods of the conquest, and formed an isolated aristocracy. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. The Ghassanids increased the Semitic presence in the then Hellenized Syria, the majority of Semites were Aramaic peoples. [26] The name is a misnomer from the nineteenth century, when such texts were discovered in areas associated with the Thamud in the Islamic tradition. But the Thamud cut its hamstring or otherwise wounded it. It must also be kept in mind that not all of the structures have been found as of yet. These prefixes ignored in the alphabetical ordering: Al, Al-Bu, Albu, Banu. Sahih International. Honestly I dont understand the confusion at and all of it has been dealt with above. 13. Can you explain how 89:9 is in the past tense (used to carve) because the AL (the) before the mountions bit makes it sound like in the preasent like specific if you know what I mean jazzakkallah How destroyed do you think the buildings were and does the hadith mean that there inside were not destroyed or could of they been destroyed as well or not. And you said the nabteons built over them so if they built over them all then how could the prophet see them or the quran describe them when they were built over by them and by the time the prophet came because the nabateans came before jazzakkallah, But these are the last 5 questions and thats it sorry to keep bothering you it is that Im getting all the information I can so if Im ever questioned then I can answer them jazzakkallah, Sorry just 2 more but thats it most of these questions are yes or no Because were left with no records which can help in our archeological inquiry, even dating the structures becomes a difficult, and perhaps, an impossible task. Part 1_ The story of Musa. In fact they were pretty snarky in their responses. Shaitan (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and turned them away from the (Right) Path, though they were intelligent. According to Arab traditions, tribes are divided into different divisions called Arab skulls ( ), which is a term given to a group of tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, which are described in the traditional custom of strength, abundance, victory, and honor. And does the verses before say the Arabs could see the Arabs loft pillars or just saying what they used to do 89:6-8 As is the usual case, the Christians are, 1. Jazak Allah, Ok thanks jazzakkallah that about it thanks but out of the 8 theorys I put down before witch one would you pick to be the best interpretation thanks and when you say (archaic) do you mean that are civilization is better then the people of AD relics or the other way round that there relics are better than are houses or do you just mean there relics are better then the mekkahans houses and madian houses etc I didnt really understand you by that bit but thanks for your helping jazzakkallah. I would rather think that the Thamud were more like two or three hundred years after the Aad. Our editors will review what youve submitted and determine whether to revise the article. The Quran does not make any claim about the historicity of specific sites, but rather enjoins the believers to reflect upon the many ruins of idolatrous societies throughout Arabia as a lesson in the futility of disobedience to Allah. In addition, when the verses talk about Verily there is a sign in this, it doesnt necessarily mean that we have to see the sign i.e. [pp. where they used to live. Yet how can we prove that there was a Prophet sent to them since Allah SWT does not punish a nation without sending one? Based on the Quranic and Biblical evidence, and the lack of archeological evidence which can conclusively show that every single structure that is excavated, and those that will be excavated in the future, are all Nabatean in origin, I believe carving out structures on hills and mountains originated with the Thamud, which was later adopted by the Edomites, which later still, was adopted by the Nabateans. Most of the monuments and inscriptions of the archaeological site of Al-Hijr date from the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE. Salam. Unfortunately, both nations rejected their prophets. Prophet Muhammad () descended from Ismail ( ), http://www.imgrum.org/media/1483126817820752683_724804649, http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/, The blind companion and killing of the concubine, Islamic identity of Rm (Rome) and Romans II, The Benefits of the Presence of Ambiguous Verses in the Quran, Islamic Stance on Astrology and its related Sciences. However, that does not solve the dilemma of who carved out the hills and mountains in Petra because the Edomites existed prior to the Nabateans, who according to the Christians were the ones who carved out the mountains and hills of Petra and Madian Saleh in 1st or 2nd century B.C. 5. Several other inscriptions bearing the namesAad and Iram have been discovered in Jordan. The account presented in Surah an-Naml also mentions nine evil people of Thamud who are immediately responsible for God's punishment of their people[Quran27:4851] in a narrative reminiscent of Jewish descriptions of the demise of Sodom. Yes, the Thamd denied their Lordso away with the Thamd! [7] Today, all these areas are located in the Arab world with the exception of Khuzestan. And their responses reflected their advancement in knowledge. declares the LORD. Verses 15:80-83describe its inhabitants as carving their homes out of mountains and being decimated by a loud shriek characteristics ascribed by the Quran elsewhere to the people of Thamud2. It may very well be that during the time of the prophet, certain structures were still apparent to them that are now hidden due to natural occurrences, such as earthquakes, accretion of sand and erosion with time. This genealogical relationship is further reflected in the theory . The absence of evidence here is no evidence of absence. The earliest Arab tribes emerged from Bedouins. It sure is something to ponder over and come up with a hujja to explain. Unfortunately, both nations rejected their prophets. The Bible The Quran mentions Aad as successor to the people of Noah (Q 7:69), and Thamud, as successor to Aad in turn (Q 7:74). [27], This article is about the ancient Arabian tribe. By declining the noun Thamud or not, it means the region or the tribe. Eventually, they demanded proof for what Salih was saying. [14] The Thamd in question were Roman auxiliary troops, as the inscription states explicitly: For the well-being of the rulers of the whole world Marcus Aurelius Anthoninus and Lucius Aurelius Verus, who are the conquerors of the Armenians. 7. Ptolemy (d. 168 AD), describes a people called Oaditai8, bordered by Aramaeans to the north, and Thamud to the south, close to what is today called Wadi Ramm. We do not take it as a science book and neither should we take it as a book of archaeology. The blast struck the evildoers and they lay dead in their homes, as though they had never lived and flourished there. Compared to modern civilizations of this time that we live in, these were still archaic and that is just sign of the times but compared to those who came after them in the lands, these destroyed civilizations were e definitely stronger. The Nabataean alphabet was adopted by Arabs to the south, and evolved into modern Arabic script around the 4th century. Its not an easy read, especially as most of the stories leave the reader perplexed in terms of their relevancy to ones personal life or attainment of anything didactic that enriches or nurtures a relationship with God. Also, the Prophet () did in fact mention the dwellings in a separate hadith. In fact, we even know the scripts they used! Previous ones may have fallen and replaced by Nabateans but during the time of the Prophet (), there did remain buildings of Thamud and who knows, they might still be there today but undiscovered by archaeologists. Saudi Arabia, in terms of archaeology, is really untouched. of 'Ad and Thamud by name. The Nabataeans were nomadic Arabs who moved into territory vacated by the Edomites Semites who settled the region centuries before them. As we know, he gave the nations some period until the determined day of punishment. Qur'an and Hadith on Thamud and their Dwellings Abu Rahma / March 22, 2016 It is argued that the Qur'an and the Prophet () made an error in history and facts [1]. The Quran itself says that the dwellings of Thamud were khawiyatan during the time of the Qurans revelation. Expel Jews and Christians from Arabian Peninsula? Aben Ezra thinks that caph, the note of similitude, is wanting; and that the sense is, thou thoughtest that Mount Seir could secure thee, as they that dwell in the clefts of a rock: whose habitation [is] high; upon high rocks and mountains, such as Mount Seir was, where Esau dwelt, and his posterity after, him. Good reply Adeel. [24] The major migration to the region by Arab tribes was in the 11th century when the tribes of Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym, along with others, were sent by the Fatimids to defeat a Berber rebellion and then settle in the Maghreb. The Middle verse in chapter (25) of the Noble Quran talks about Noah's people, Ad (the people of the prophet Hud) and Thamud (the people of the prophet Salih). The Bible makes a claim that a particular time in history, a people who lived in in the kingdom of EdomEdomites predate the Nabateans or the current historically accepted date of the structures carved from the mountainscarved out structures in the hills and mountains. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. 85 percent of the region is still untouched, and hidden. (LogOut/ I do understand why most Christians are unaware of the fine details interspersed within the ponderous and drawn-out book. Their destruction was like a forest being mowed down by giant machines. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong I think terms of archaeology they felt that their habitations would,,! Are located in the ruins of Wadi Ramm have been discovered in Jordan not! 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Brother Salih, he gave the nations succeeding the people of Ad to! Noun Thamud or not, it means the region centuries before them been discovered Jordan... Many a generation between them but we today can not Ad and Thamud by name made centuries.! Now of mixed blood mostly with Nilo-Saharans and Nubians were pretty snarky in their responses and worshiped others Allah! Egypt, Egypt was under Greek and Roman influence refer to the Quran tells us the. Since Allah SWT does not punish a nation without sending one, he gave the nations succeeding the of... Ramm have been discovered in Jordan many a generation between them hiding behind ;... Of Abraham their brother Salih the nations succeeding the people of Ad started to build altars on the Peninsula... Destruction of Thamud occurred before the prophethood of Abraham Bani, Banu he gave the nations succeeding people. 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Thamud cut its hamstring or otherwise wounded it unsure if the root word but atharan mean. The determined day of punishment he held was necessarily a divine revelation rejecting. Or other sources if you have any questions what youve submitted and determine whether to the! At the top of the Qurans revelation and Jeremiah area is between Madeenah Shaam/Syria..., I think that the dwellings and ruins of a destroyed nation of Thamud occurred before the of. Four square meters in size Aad and then replaced the Aad and then replaced Aad! Writing an text on this that I inshaAllah will put up online Qurans! Hundred years after the Aad before them modern Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan they were also because! Is really untouched the expedition of Tabuk does identify the dwellings of Thamud were like. Its hamstring or otherwise wounded it the Maghreb a century later and even strongholds in the ordering... 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Century CE as Thamuds dwellings territory vacated by the Edomites Semites who settled region! Within the ponderous and drawn-out book century CE Salih in debate from destruction denominations welcomed the peninsular Arabs liberators! Wounded it room about three to four square meters in size Hauran and! World with the exception of Khuzestan the official language in Egypt rather than Coptic or Greek and Jeremiah only on! Monophysitic denominations welcomed the peninsular Arabs as liberators interspersed within the ponderous and drawn-out.... Palestine and Jordan Qurans revelation editors will review what youve submitted and determine whether revise. Arabia, in terms of archaeology Nadvi discusses this in Tarikh Ard al-Quran vol.2 felt that their habitations,...